The Potter Discussion: Harry Potter, Fantastic Beasts and the Wizarding World Fandom

Is Dumbledore Really a Good Person?

January 29, 2023 Sound Owl Media Episode 166
The Potter Discussion: Harry Potter, Fantastic Beasts and the Wizarding World Fandom
Is Dumbledore Really a Good Person?
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

In this episode, we discuss if Dumbledore is really a good person.

Topics/Summary:

·      Check out episode 147, Dumbledore is a Death Eater here.

·      2:44 Why are we talking about this at all? Well, it changes the story a lot. If Dumbledore was helping Harry in a selfish way, we can see this in a very different light. In the Battle of the Order of the Phoenix, Dumbledore comes to Harry’s rescue. Just think, what if Dumbledore was saving Harry so Harry could die at the right moment instead of just saving him so he would be spared. 

·      10:30 Dumbledore makes a lot of sacrifices. His entire plan was to keep Harry alive until he could die at the right time, and he used human shields to do this. Harry’s sacrifice was the only one that had to happen. Sure, others may have died, but it was Dumbledore who put the rest of the people who died in front of Harry. It might have gone better if they set a trap for Voldemort or thinking of something else besides hope that he can’t kill everyone until Harry. 

·      15:31 Dumbledore bears an uncanny resemblance to Grindelwald. A lot of the things Dumbledore is doing is very similar to a ‘for the greater good’ mentality. Both Grindelwald and Dumbledore think they need sacrifice to reach the perfect world they are fighting for. Even Dumbledore says he isn’t a perfectly moral person, and though this doesn’t mean Dumbledore is trying to develop these secret plots against Harry, just keep in mind the influence from Grindelwald. 

·      20:42 Given the chance, would Dumbledore change his life? Not his current one, no. But his past… yes. If Dumbledore could go back and change his relationship with Grindelwald and give his young self advice, he absolutely would. Dumbledore wouldn’t change his life in a huge way, but he would want to tweak a few key things that would steer him away from Grindelwald. 

·      25:10 So. The zillion dollar question. Is Dumbledore a good person? Overall, yes. Dumbledore is a good person. But, he’s not perfect. Dumbledore has made many mistakes in his life, making sacrifice upon sacrifice. The reason Dumbledore is a good person, is he didn’t make any big mistakes when it counted. Dumbledore used his youth to be with Grindelwald, then in his adult life, saw his mistakes and became a good person.

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VO:
Welcome to the Potter discussion.

Oscar:
Welcome back to the Potter discussion, discussing Harry Potter fantastic piece in the Wizarding World fandom. I'm your host Oscar, and this is Episode 166. Thank you all for joining me again today. It is another lovely day and it is a pleasure to be recording to you all today. I am very excited to announce that we are talking about Dumbledore and questioning his morality and discussing whether Dumbledore is really that good of a person. This is a question that I think we've been kind of circling for a while with episodes like is Dumbledore Death Theater? That was definitely one that will be in the show notes and just little things like that. And the piece of content that really pushed over that told me that we absolutely had to do a podcast episode about this was a newsletter that went out over on the Quillin Inc. Discussing Rita Skeeter and kind of talking about whether she was really that good of a person or not. And of course the answer was no. But when I sent that email, it had some pretty good responses and I think that definitely inspired me to make this episode and I think it's going to be a good one because there is a lot of material to discuss and a lot of different avenues this discussion could go down. So I think if this is something that you're interested in, this is going to be a great episode to hear and I'm really looking forward to it. But before we get into today's episode, I will remind you that if you have any questions, comments, topics or subjects you want to hear on the podcast, you can go ahead and send me an email. My email is the Potter discussion@gmail.com, that is the Potter discussion@gmail.com. You can send me a DM on Instagram. My instagram is at the Potter discussion. That's at the Potter discussion. And the quill and ink, as I just mentioned, is a weekly Harry Potter newsletter. So in addition to this podcast, you can also receive emails every single Wednesday about your favorite Harry Potter topics. That link will be in the Show Notes below to sign up. And when you do sign up, you get a list of my favorite Easter eggs in the books and films for all of Harry Potter. So go ahead and check that out. That is a great deal. I highly recommend it. And of course, if you enjoyed today's episode and the show in general, consider leaving a review. It helps other people find the show and it helps me out a lot. So thank you for listening to all of this intro. But let's get into today's episode. The very first thing I want to talk about in today's episode is why are we talking about this at all? Why does this have anything to do with anything? And what is the point of going over whether Dumbledore is a good person if the whole story worked out and Harry won and what's the point? Why are we even talking about this? Well, I think the main reason is it changes the story a lot. And I think if we think back to the story and we think of a lot of different situations in which Harry was perhaps in danger or he needed help, or he needed to be rescued or vouched for or anything like that. And that situation in which Dumbledore came to his aid we assumed that Dumbledore was doing that to protect Harry and he was doing it out of the good of his own heart. But if you put the lens of well maybe he was not doing that for such moral reasons and he might have been doing it because he was in fact protecting himself and he wanted the world to survive because he didn't want to die or get hurt or anything like that. It definitely puts a different lens on it because I think if you see Dumbledore as a selfless person who's making these sacrifices, who's helping Harry left and right, who's doing all these things you immediately think oh wow, Dumb is like such a good person. Of course he is a wonderful role model and he is someone that Harry should absolutely be looking up to. But then if you think about it from well maybe all those times if he wasn't thinking so selflessly and maybe he wasn't thinking for the benefit of Harry it definitely puts a spin on it. There are a lot of different times in which Harry was helping Dumbledore. I think the one that I'm immediately drawn to is the Battle of the Order of the Phoenix. I think that is a huge deal in which Dumbledore I mean I hate to say it but Dumbledore saved the day in that situation. Harry is facing Bellatrix and Voldemort and suffice to say I don't think he would have made it out of that one alive. He was even struggling against Bellatrix and of course he had her. Like he could have got her. He could have cast a pretty nasty spell and gotten her out but I don't think he would have. I think he would have backed down because he believes in justice. And that unfortunately is something that is quite detrimental to Harry's ability to win against Death Eaters who don't have such values. So I think Harry may have been able to at least hurt Bellatrix or at least incapacitate her so she wouldn't be able to get away. But of course good old Volde showed up and he couldn't do a thing. And even when he raised his wand to Voldemort voldemort just like flicked his hand and Harris wand went flying. So I think we can assume that if Dumbledore hadn't showed up that day voldemort would have either taken Harry and sacrificed him in like a huge way and like everyone watching and he did this whole dramatic thing. Maybe he would have done that or maybe he would have just flicked his wand and apparatus away. So I don't know. I think there's a lot of different things that could have done, like, unbelievably horribly wrong for Harry in that moment with facing Waldorum Beltrix. But thank the lords of wizards and wishes that Dumbledore showed up. And I must say I think that's like the moment. It's like you're facing down the hordes of enemies. This is a very Tolkien kind of moment because I feel like the Tolkien special is like, we've got the protagonist and they're like, standing there and they're facing down, like, the hordes and the armies and the eartheaters and everything. And then they just take their sword and unsheet it and then from over the hill, like the battalion and the retaliation just like, pours. That's exactly this kind of moment. And I definitely saw it like that because, of course, Dumbledore is pretty powerful. He's got some of those spells down and he knows what he's doing. I think we can say that. So when he did eventually arrive, I think we really saw that, you know, it was going to be okay and Dumbledore was going to take care of it. And of course we assumed that at first, but then it was kind of like the battle was, I mean, going back and forth, back and forth. And I think eventually it was kind of a stalemate. I'd say Dumbledore did kind of win because Voldemort's plan was to kill Harry and he did not. And Dumbledore's plan was to drive Voldemort away and he did. So I think Dumbledore definitely came out with at least a slightly upper hand, that one. So Dumbledore was, like, pretty powerful in that moment. So I think I've sold you pretty much on how powerful Dumbledore is, how helpless Harry would have been without him and how big of a moment it was when Dumbledore finally showed up to help Harry and well, I should say help, but to basically save Harry from Voldemort. But now let's flip that a little bit if we go in and kind of think that Dumbledore just instead of thinking, I don't want Harry to die because I care about him and he has so much more to live, his life is not over. This cannot end this way. I want to save him, maybe that's a great reason. That is a fantastic reason. That's the reason we assume Dumb Lord goes into safe Harry and that's the reason that we assume going out. But now let's kind of flip that and then say, let's think that and kind of flip the scenario. So now what if Dumbledore went in thinking, well, I want to go in and I want to save Harry because this is not his time to die and I want to kill him a different time. I want to save his life so he can die later, then you're kind of like what, what's the point then? Why would you do that? That seems like a very strange thing to do. I don't know. That's something that I would definitely be a little cautious of, because I think if someone says, like, oh, you're safe, you're safe, we're going to kill you later, but you're good now, why are you telling what I think? That's kind of the moment I was feeling here, and that is kind of what I feel like the other side of the coin is. And now I think that's why we have to talk about this because there is two sides to every coin and we give them the benefit of the doubt for every single one and I don't think we should be doing that. So today let's go a little bit deeper into not only who Dumbledore is but his status as the immoral high ground that we know and love today. So I think one thing that we can say and one thing that I think differentiates his plan from perhaps a different person's and why I think his morality is most in question is Dumbledore's habit for making sacrifices. Yeah making sacrifices. I think that is probably one of if not the most apparent reason why he may not be that awesome of a person. Because if we think about Dumbledore's plan for a second basically his entire strategy was keep Harry alive so we can kill him at the end. That was essentially what Dumbledore was planning because of course Harry had the final horcrux and he had to die eventually and I think that is definitely something that we are noticing and seeing and I think eventually when we realize that that is what he's planning that the whole concept of dying at the right moment is really what Demodor is thinking. We're kind of like oh okay. And it does make sense at first because if Harry has to die for Baltimore to die as well I don't know, I think then we're kind of like well, then maybe Dumbledore had the right idea but I think that it was perhaps a little overboard because Dumbledore used human shields as one of his main ways of protection. And I think that is definitely not the way to go. I think Harry's sacrifice was one of the only ones in which it had to happen because if Voldemort had to do it and if Harry had to die there was like very slim pickings here. But then again he could have influenced the situation and maybe made it a little more favorable for Harry because if you think about it Dumbledore could have set like the most elaborate trap. He could have spotted Bardi crowd shooter earlier maybe and then allowed Harry to go to the graveyard and instead of just letting him be and hoping that he'll make it out, he will gather the order and then just descend. So a voldemort can kill Harry. And then maybe they bring like, I don't know, the resurrection stone or something like that and maybe they don't have it. There's a lot of things that could be a lot different with the way that that worked and I think that is definitely one of the reasons why it didn't work out the way that we thought it would. Because if Dumbledore like in like the 6th book for example if Dumbledore set a trap and had Harry's debate and Voldemort came and they got Harry out and they put the order in I don't know, I feel like that could have been one of the better ways to do it. But again like I said before harry's sacrifice was probably the only one that was justified because Folder Warren did have to kill Harry so they couldn't just immediately get Harry out as quickly as they could. They had to wait for Harry to be killed in order to be sent back. And of course then that's thinking about how do you get even sent get back? Like where was he? Like I mean that is a whole other scenario and that is definitely a future episode. But I think what we're really talking about here is Dumbledore was under the impression and I think that is a valid impression at the moment that Voldemort was willing to kill to get what he wanted and that is true. But Dumbledore then instead of saying great let's protect everyone he said great let's protect Harry. And that I think is where this all kind of unravels because what he then did was say all right everyone else go like go protect Harry and get yourselves killed. That was when I was kind of like okay, like let's pause. And I'll be honest there may not have been other scenarios in which many people made it out alive but I think the way Dementor set the situation up he was setting up I mean dozens and dozens and dozens of people to be killed. I don't think we can, we can really support him on that one. So I think that is really where this whole thing begins of is he really that smart of a person? Is he really that good of a person? But there's a lot more to discuss so let's move on. Now I want to dive into a topic that I found very interesting and the connection a little unsettling and it's something that I only really just thought of when I was writing the episode. It didn't occur to me when I was just thinking of the idea but when I was really thinking through what it meant and all the different talking points and when I was first designing the episode then it kind of occurred to me and now I want to talk about it. So what I want to kind of get into now is Dumbledore's past because of course he has a quite long and extensive history and we are of course recounting that history through Fantastic Beasts. But we definitely know that Dumbledore was not always against Grindelwald. In fact, he was probably one of the people who was most devoted to Grindelwald and one who's supporting him the most. And the same was true for Grindelwald. Grindelwald, I mean they were close to the brothers, they were, I mean, lovers, they were together. And I think that is something that Dumbledore definitely remembers and something that might kind of haunt him a little bit but he doesn't think about it because Grindelwald is gone. But what I was really reminded of in a very scary way when I was really thinking through this was a lot of the sacrifices that Dumbledore is making and a lot of these different things and a lot of different scenarios seem like a very for the greater good kind of situation. And that is not a situation in which we would like to be involved. So just think about it for a second. Grindelwald is a person who believes that Muggles should be killed. And that is of course not something that Dumbledore believes. But what Grindelwald does is he makes sacrifices and he does things for the greater good. Now Dumbledore believes that Voldemort is in the wrong and in such an extreme wrong and posing such a threat to the wizarding world that he should not be alive and he should not be operating against the functioning of the wizarding world. So what he does is he makes sacrifices for the greater good of the world so he can be stopped. So voldemort can be stopped. Let me ask you if I just said there's a group of people and person A wants to make sacrifices and have people killed and have death and destruction so they can be destroyed. And person B, there's another group of people that they think should not be allowed to continue and they make sacrifices and cause destruction so they can be killed. Is there a difference? Is there really a difference between those two situations? No, there is not. And that is why I was thinking like whoa, if you take a step back and you really look at it, it is a whole different ballpark. And I think this is really, I guess, a little convoluted because there is definitely some separation between Dumbledore and Grindelwald. And I think in this particular scenario dumbledore is a better person than Grindelwald because Grindelwald is thinking of like mass slaughter of Muggles and removing them and he genuinely despises them. And I think that is similar to Voldemort who just hates smuggles with a passion. So I think the fact that Dumbledore, the fact that Grindelwald and Voldemort are along the same lines and they are both seen as the evil characters, I think we can assume that Dumbledore is better than them at least. But then the question comes into play is he a good person in general? Is he a good person? And I think this is really where it gets confusing, like I said, because even Dumbledore himself says that maybe he's not this perfectly moral person. He regrets a lot of his choices, he regrets a lot of the things that he has done and he says that and that is why he wants to fix them. And I'm not saying that Dumbledore is secretly trying to create all these completely different plans and do these different things and develop these secret plots against Harry. I'm not saying he's like a secret agent or a secret spy. He is trying to help Harry. But I'm just saying in the way that he's doing it might not be so great. So that is kind of what I am getting at with this whole whole episode. So for the greater good in relation to Grindelwald, just keep that in mind as we move through this episode. There are a couple of final things I want to go over before we close out this episode in just a couple of minutes. And the first thing is really talking about if he had the chance would Dumbledore change his life? Would he be a different person in a different place? Would he not be the headmaster? Would he be helping in Borgen and Burke or something like that? Would he be working in Olivanders? Would he be Olivander? Like what is going on here? I think to answer the question would he change what his life is? I think the answer would be no. Because what his life is is something that he enjoys. He is the headmaster, he loves Hogwarts and he loves helping out, all that go there. But I think what he would want to change is what his life was and there is definitely a key distinction there because there are very very different times in his life almost a century apart. If Dumbledore could change what he did with Grenovald, if he could change the promises that they made, the devotion they had and the ideals that they shared and didn't, I think Dumbledore would take that chance 100% of the time because like I said, Dumbledore says he's made mistakes. He's not a great person. He says he no wonders rather if what he did was right. And I think that's a pretty good thing to be questioning especially when a lot of things that you're doing involve killing other people that may be on your side and not fighting for the enemy. So I think if Dumbbell could change his life he would absolutely do so and I think what he would do to change it is he would just separate himself from Grindelwald because that is then now we're going again back to fourth Greater Good how his ideas were influenced by Grindelwald. And I think Dumbledore does see that a little bit. He does see how his life was impacted by Grindelwald. Even though he tries to separate himself from Grindelwald completely, he is still supporting some of the things that Grindelwald was thinking of when they were sharing ideas and when they were still friends and their lovers perhaps. So I think that is something that Dumbledore would not hesitate to change. But it wouldn't be so huge that he would be immediately removed from Godrick's Hollow and then his life would be dismantled and he would have to move lives and his pathway to being headmaster would be completely different. And maybe he wasn't a star student and then maybe he did this and that and then he made that choice and he took a year abroad and he moved to Switzerland, he moved back and his life would be so completely different if he just changes a couple of key things. But I think the singular key thing that Dumbledore would change in his life would be Grindelwald. Because again, this is the sole reason why Dumbledore is using the tactics that he is and why he's supporting some of the ideas and why, I hate to say it, but why he is so successful. Because the things that Grindelwald does work and they work really well. And that is a huge problem for, I mean, not only Newt but Dumbledore and Dumbledore in the future. So there is a huge, a huge amount of information to be gained and a huge amount of life to get back, if you know what I'm saying here. If Grindelwald is just taken out of the picture and I think Dumbledore knows that, I think Dumbledore wants that and that is exactly what Dumbledore has to do in order to escape the almost cycle that he has been put in by Grindelwald and by himself and their past. And why the things he is doing is in such support and in such similarity with Grindelwald. Again, going back to the analogy of group of people who hate Muggles and make sacrifices to destroy them and person b group of people who hate Muggles making a sacrifice to destroy them, you see just how similar they are. So that is exactly the thing I think Grindelwald would change about or that Dumbledore would change about his life in order to escape Grindelwald, the thing that would change and in order to be a better person on the whole. And now for the million dollar question, for the billion dollar question, for the trillion quadrillion dollar question, we're going to answer this once and for all. Was dumbledore. A good person. Is dumbledore. A good person. What is going on here? Let's answer this question. So I think I've given you enough background, I've given you 20 plus minutes of background to make up your mind and I think I've gotten my answer and I think you may have your answer too. So both sides haven't argued somewhat and I think we're ready to make a final decision. So was Dumbledore a good person? In my opinion overall, nothing else in between? If it was Dumbledore, I think Dumbledore is a good person overall. Despite I was arguing against him so hard, I do think Dumbledore is a good person and of course I think this is not a one word answer. I mean this is when the teacher says why explain. This is exactly what I'm doing right now. So yes, Dumbledore is a good person overall. If it was Dumbledore versus Voldemort, I would choose Dumbledore. But I think Dumbledore is not perfect and no one is perfect and Dumbledore falls into that category of being no one. So I think Dumbledore has made mistakes, he has made a lot of mistakes. He's talked to dangerous people, he's thought dangerous ideas and I think that's why we were questioning his morality because he has made sacrifice upon sacrifice upon sacrifice and he has come up with these dangerous ideas. Like I said before, he was talking with Grindelwald and I think that is a very thin line to be tiptoeing back and forth, back and forth, back and forth for years. But the reason I finally landed on he is a good person is he didn't make big mistakes when it counted, when he needed to be sharp, when he needed the trio to be smart, when he needed the order to make decisions, when he needed every single person who was in his contact to be someone who could help him and defend good. Dumbledore did not mess that up and that is exactly why I think he is overly good person. And don't get me wrong, not perfect by any means. Sacrifice, let me remind you of that. The people that died, remus, Tongs, Fred, so many and I mean in the end Dumbledore himself. But this is exactly what I am kind of getting at here and it is that you can make so many mistakes, you can make as many mistakes as you want but when the mistakes count are when they affect people other than yourself. And luckily for Dumbledore and luckily for the world, he pulled out with Grindelwald before it could go any further and he didn't, you know, talk to Grindelwald after that. He just defeated him in 1945 and that was that. And that is I think how he is redeemed. Dumbledore is not the kind of person to then just go back into the greater good. But I think Dumbledore is definitely for the greater good and I think this is kind of where we see Dumbledore's break. Grindelwald is fighting for his good, for his ideal world, for his success and that is what he calls the greater good. But Dumbledore's greater good is I would call the better one. I would absolutely support Dumbledore more than Grindelwald. I think that doesn't come to a shock to anyone. So that is why I think he is better than Grindelwald and why I think he is a good person in general. And it comes in the distinction between the greater good. The greater good is a fantastic concept. I very much agree with you. Sometimes you have to make sacrifices to eventually come out on top for the world to be a better place. That is true in any scenario. But the problem comes when the good is skewed. Because not everyone has a finite and solid idea of what good is, and that's where this kind of differentiates. But Dumbledore's greater good is the greater good that I also see. And yes, again, sacrifices were made, but in the end, greater good was achieved and the world was a lot better off for it. And that is a perfect place to end today's episode. I am pleased with that. I loved writing this episode. I love recording it now, and I love recording it now. But thank you all for listening to today's episode. I hope you gained something. I hope you thought about the story from a different angle. I hope something aided you in the Harry Potter story. This was another great episode, and I think the episode numbers did get a bit mixed up. Because what I do in my notebook where I make my episodes, I write the episode number, the title, and then I just write the actual episode. But I didn't realize I wouldn't be able to get to the studio for an episode. So I'd already written all the episode numbers in my book, not accounting for the one that I was going to skip and instead do a rerun. So I put in that episode, and then I just said the episode number that was written in the notebook, not the one that I knew to be next. So I think I said something twice maybe. I think I said episode 164 for last episode, even though that was 165, but I corrected it today. This is episode of 166, and next episode will be 167, and I don't know what that will be. So if you want to hear something that you want to hear about, I'm very happy to do that. I love hearing ideas from you and I love doing them. So please send me an email if you would like to hear your idea here on the show. My email is the Potter discussion@gmail.com, that is the Potter discussion@gmail.com, and again, instagram at the Potter discussion for an idea you may have. And of course, like I said before, a review. If you enjoyed this episode, a five star review really helps other people find the show and helps me out a ton. So if you would be willing to do a review, just tap the stars or maybe write a review if you feel generous today, that would be greatly appreciated. And yes, Quillen coming out this Wednesday. Stay tuned for that. That will be another source of content for you to keep updated with. So a lot of fun things going on and I am very excited for next week. Thank you all for listening to today's episode. And as always, remember. That happiness can be found even in the darkest of times if one only remembers to turn on the light. I will see you later.

VO:
This was The Potter Discussion.


Intro
Why are we talking about this at all?
Dumbledore makes a lot of sacrifices.
Dumbledore bears an uncanny resemblance to Grindelwald.
Given the chance, would Dumbledore change his life?
The zillion dollar question. Is Dumbledore a good person?